Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff accused the government of "low-balling" taxpayers Thursday about the true cost to buy 65 new F-35 fighter jets, as a new report suggested that the final price tag could be double the initial estimates.
Ignatieff said in Parliament that the estimated $30-billion bill for the jets represents "$1,000 for every Canadian man, woman and child."
Earlier in the day, Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page released his report into the plan to purchase stealth fighter jets from U.S. manufacturer Lockheed Martin.
The 64-page report pegs the cost at just under $30 billion over a 30-year period.
The government has said the jets would cost $16 billion, including maintenance costs. Page said the government's estimates were based on a 20-year period, and used out-of-date information from the planes' manufacturer.
"I don't think they've been transparent," Page said.
The government hasn't budgeted enough money for the planes in their long-term defence plan, he added, placing the federal treasury at risk.
Ignatieff said that the government has only offered Canadians a "guestimate" about the eventual price tag.
"When will this government stop low-balling the Canadian public, face the facts and tell them the truth?" Ignatieff asked.
Page's estimate factors in the historical increase of 4 per cent per year to the cost of building fighter jets.
"Relying on these historical trends and applicable cost drivers, the PBO was able to forecast a total ownership cost of approximately US$29.3 billion for the 65 aircraft over a 30-year period," the report states.
The report, which was reviewed by independent experts in several countries, said there was insufficient data to estimate how much the contract would cost if it had been opened to multiple bidders instead of sole-sourced.
When Prime Minister Stephen Harper was asked about the report in Toronto, he told reporters that he would not "get into a lengthy debate about numbers" and said that the contracts to purchase the jets are already in place.
However, the report said there would be no penalties for declining to go ahead with the purchase.
The federal government "has not signed any binding contract for acquisition, nor is it under any legal obligation -- international or domestic -- to go ahead with the purchase," it said.
The prime minister also said the current plan was set in motion by the previous Liberal government in 1997, and maintained that the F-35 "is the only fighter available that serves the purposes that our air force needs."
In writing the report, Page's office was given access to the air force's statement of requirements for the new planes. It was dated June 1, 2010, only weeks before the government announced its intention to purchase the F-35s.
That led NDP defence critic Jack Harris to charge that the statement of requirements was written to fit the F-35 deal.
"We've been sold a bill of goods," Harris said.
The Liberals say they would cancel the non-binding purchase agreement and open up a competitive bidding process.
Liberal MP Dominic LeBlanc said the per-plane cost estimate shows the Conservatives have intentionally deceived taxpayers.
The Conservative estimate puts the total cost at around $250 million per plane, compared to Page's estimate of around $450 million.
"This is an unconscionable amount of money," LeBlanc said of the difference between the two estimates.
"The Conservatives have once again misled Canadians about the real cost of their agenda and that's why Parliament has to take this issue very, very seriously."
Jay Paxton, a spokesperson for Defence Minister Peter MacKay, said defence experts "stand by their cost projections."
"This report is intended as a preliminary set of data for discussion," he said. He described the F-35 as "the only jet that can meet the needs of the Air Force, as noted by Mr. Page. Simply put, this is the best plane for the best price and we are confident in our acquisition."
The Conservatives have faced criticism over a number of issues in recent days.
On Wednesday, House Speaker Peter Milliken issued two rulings against the government.
Milliken ruled the government breached parliamentary privilege by refusing to provide all documents that the Standing Committee on Finance requested, detailing the full cost of its crime bills and tax cuts.
He said MPs are entitled to know the initiatives' exact costs. The government has declined to reveal the full estimates, citing cabinet confidences.
In a second ruling issued Wednesday, Milliken found that International Co-operation Minister Bev Oda breached parliamentary privilege by misleading MPs when she claimed she did not know who altered an official document that denied funding to a faith-based aid organization.
Oda later admitted she had authorized a staff member to add the word "not" to a document that recommended $7 million in funding for KAIROS.
Milliken's rulings will now go to the Commons procedures and House affairs committee, which will consider what action to take. On the issue of the costs of the tax cuts and crime bills, MPs will have to decide whether to compel the government to issue all related documents. Committee members will also consider whether Oda lied to Parliament.
suggested that the final price tag could be double the initial estimates: suggested? could be? What kind of math is this? It's probably, could very well, depending on, if everything after, based on? How much? Politicians are incredible with numbers. Vote for a mathematician in the next election.
What will it take to export Iggy????WE have had enough of this lame brain yank!
For someone who says our flag barely passes for a beer lab, this makes total sense!Iggy we need the planes! Or maybe you know where to pick up a couple of bi-planes for a steal.LetÂ’s get a grip, our troops need good equipment, and good equipment cost money.
these jets are able to fly in the artic so stop the liberal lies. And with the engine desinge too day they are as good as two ,if you want too knock this plane at least do your home work!!!!!!
Why is Mr. Ignatieff frequently denigrated by being called IGGY while Mr. Harper is only called Harper, not HARPY? Why are some "Canadians" finding so necessary to malign someone while they apparently making a constructive comment?
I don't really see how this is an issue. The government gave an estimate for the costs of the plane PLUS the maintenance over a 20 year period. Mr. Page releases costing for the planes and maintenance over a 30 year period. How is this even the same thing?Let's say I pay $1,000 per month for rent for a total of $12,000 a year. Assuming no inflation for the sake of argument, I'll pay $240,000 over 20 years. Along comes the PBO who wags his fingers and says I'm wrong. According to him, my actual costs are $360,000 over 30 years. This seems to be something that should be filed with the 'Well-Duh" department.
I love this if people would do the calculations this is what you will find.PM - $16 B / 20 years = $800 MMr. Page -$30 B / 30 years = $1 BDifference of $200 M when you put inflation and other cost it's almost the same. However, if IGGI has his American way he will say no and we will have nothing. Canada is trying to build a Military but IGGI would like to kill it even more than it is already.
Hey Iggy, if the Conservatives are low-balling what is the real price? Can you honestly tell me that in this day and age we cannot get a rough price from the Americans. As for Mr. Paige ( Liberal Mole) Also people when you are in sales you try to buy early and buy when lots of people are buying so that you get the best price! It is simple mathematics folks buy lots get better price, so when so many countries buy they get buying power!
Jet Fighter $30 Billion for 30 years or $30 Billion for the next generation of Liberal Adscam/HRDC for 22 years.I'll go Fighter Jets, at least the taxpayer walks away with equity
As a serving member, I'm just curious what the Liberals consider is an 'acceptable' price tag for equipment to keep my peers and I alive?When it comes to equipment that is meant to keep us up-to-date and able to protect not only our sovereignty, but the lives in the airspace and on the ground, this really shouldn't be a political debate....Or are our lives up for nickle and diming too?
If it was your son or daughter in Canada's military, would you not want the best equipment for them? These aircraft are state of the art and so should our military be...Lets face it other nations military spending is way up, and we should not be ignoring this.. As a Canadian I want to see our nation have the ability to defend itself. Whatever the cost is, our sovereignty is worth it... Other nations strive to get where we are at and we should be more than willing to defend what we have.. Personally I think we need to spend much more on our military. And our young men and women deserve the best Canada has to offer.. Lets stop being cheap when it comes to our armed forces..
interesting... this site is full of hired conservative commentators.
Iggy's at it again with his daily routine of trying to make folks believe that Harper is somehow secretive or corrupt. The Liberals have no credible platform for the next election so his only hope is to desperately try to tell Canadians that "Harper is bad - but we (Liberals) aren't! So vote for us!" The problem is that Iggy doesn't have any significant tangible evidence to support either of those claims.
For everyone in support of the jet purchase - how about we, as Canadians, just pay it up front.
If you're so sure that this is a wise investment of our tax dollars, then I'm sure you'd be prepared to pay $1000 personally (and $1000 for each of your kids), so we don't have to go further into debt as a country.
Remember, we DO have a very sizeable deficit to pay down. It only makes sense!
If my math is accurate, and rounded for simplicity, the cost of maintaining a combat fixed wing air force fleet is .96 billion per year over a 30 year period, according to the "watchdog". The governmentÂ’s estimate was .82 billion over 20 years. Consider this, the cost of maintaining an aging fleet increases with each decade in service. At least one complete refit and two complete IT and tech retrofits must be calculated for the final decade. As well, the hours of ground maintenance increases per hour of flight during the last decade quoted by the watchdog. I wonder why the estimate was not written to address costs over twenty years, as was offered to parliament, by the government. The numbers appear skewed to confuse the general public. The general public is not a gullible as the opposition parties may wish. I suspect a quote over 20 years would not have demonstrated a gross a miscalculation as the opposition, and or, the "watchdog" would have preferred. Who does the watchdog work for again?
Why does every major Government decision have to be accompanied by a volcanic eruption of BS?The cost of the F-35 is rising and our Government has nothing to do with it.From the Dallas Star-Telegram Thursday, Jan. 06, 2011, “F-35 development and testing is roughly four years behind schedule and, with the latest budget plan, 60 percent over the original $30 billion upfront cost.”How can our Government give a firm price when the contractor won’t give them one? Perhaps the Liberals should not have joined the Joint Strike Fighter partnership in the first place.We could always choose a “Made in Canada” solution for the next generation fighter/attack aircraft.What Canada really needs is an F-22 with ground attack capabilities. Sure, a super-F-22 will cost four to ten times more than an F-35 but it will be the very best and we deserve no less.Who will be in the van?
Its okey that Kevin Page has no loyalty to the government that appointed him and is a undercover liberal agent working for the opposition. But what is Not Okey is that 99 times out of 100 his reports are dead WRONG and he should be fired for being incompetent and then be sent back to elementary school math classes.
Iggy is using words that are designed for sound clips because he doesn't have a valid argument just another made for media tempest in a teapot. Don't know bout the rest of my fellow Canucks but I am really getting tired of hearing this guy all the time. They never offer anything useful just chip away at the government majoring in the minors at issues that make their ADSCAM scandal look like a Girl Guide picnic by comparison (did they ever pay us back? NO!) . I wish these opposition folks would shut up, sit down and do some work for Canadians. This is not work - this is a waste - especially since Iggy among all MP's is delinquent from sitting in the House of Commons. Where the hell is he most days anyway? Iggy you're getting under my skin big time.
This is really getting sickening listen to a bunch of over paid Politicans behave like little kids.
No wonder voter turn out is declining.
This voter has seen, heard and simply has had enough of this crap.
NO One is deserving of my vote.
This is so stupid. The only reason Iggy cares about this is because of the threat of an election thinking he can get an upper hand. He doesn't realize that every time he opens his mouth people just hate him even more. Regarding the jets, we cannot depend on others to protect us forever. I'm not saying that fighter jets are the best route to go but we definitely need to do a better job supporting our military. Our forces are so busy helping others and the politicians are not using common sense to make sure that we are okay too. One day we are going to run into a wall because we weren't watching where we were going and it's going to hurt really bad. I don't like Harper, but the Liberals should be ashamed of themselves right now. They are more disorganized than a kindergarten class. There is no way I would vote in favour of Ignatieff; all he cares about is the drama. If he actually wanted to do something helpful, he would suggest reasonable alternative ideas instead of just bashing Harper's.
To dontbeblind can you provide proof that the soon to be acquired CF-35 will not be able to fly in the Arctic?
The cost is not the issue as $1000 over 30 years is very affordable for Canada's self defense.
Howeever I cannot vote for somene who lies and is a fan of closed door decisions and being quite shady and in terms of recently proposed Bills Harper is a fool.
This is sugar on the icing to his cake of B/S....
$1000 is a low price to pay for proper security. Go ahead, buy those fighters.
Not surprising that after all the truth is starting to emerge about the CPC and how they conduct the nation's business and their own (which they just cannot separate), that Fanatic Cons still preach their virtues. If anyone deserved each other like a dung fly deserves...well you know...it is this bunch of fools.
".I guess if Canadians want the economy to fail, HST to rise,carbon tax. Then the Liberals are the way to go."Yes, Chretien and Martin certainly had a failing economy. Good thing Steve came in to turn a surplus into a 50 billion deficit (yes we had a tough economic times but don't act like that's a change for the positive). The HST for Ontario and BC was also initiated by the Federal Conservatives but let's just ignore reality, I also love all the people bashing Page even saying he hasn't been accurate. Well, if we were going to get rid of people for bad predictions, Flaherty should be the first to go, his Crystal Ball has failed every year so far.
Note Defence is a team endeavour. It is unlikely that Canada will ever launch any military action by itself, so any strategy must maximize systems integration with our allies. The F35 program amounts to $30 per Canadian per year out of a Defence budget of $600 per person. Pretty small price to participate with the big boys to earn our place at any international table. Or we can just throw ourselves at the mercy of the Americans and Europe with no bargaining clout at all. And note that even the mighty Yanks cannot afford to develop competing alternatives. Don't even think of sending our kids into any conflict anywhere on the planet without some hope of overwhelming superiority.
The fiberals are bandits remember the QUE.thing.
Trading with out neighbours South of us is part of NAFTA which was agreed upon by many Governmental Parties, no just the present. The F-35 is parts are being built in many Nations, including Canada. Even though the company running the show is in the U.S.A. (part of NAFTA agreement). Canadian companies are also being employed and other Nations who all Jointly agreed to buy the F-35.It all comes down to if Canada wants to be relevant in the Joint Aerospace Battlefield. According to the opposition they rather have the U.S.A. protect our Air Defence. Without the F-35 we have no future Aerospace Defence strategy that will level the playing field with other Nations.However because of the cost overruns and the impression of lies by the present Government, all this is sounding like an expensive-con.So lets pay extra $$$ to cancel the agreement and spend more money on the maintenance of out aged equipment so we will be irrelevant in the future. Good choice opposition.
Harper low balling? Wow, who low balled the long gun registry by 1000%? Iggy needs to find issues with meat on the bones and not little sound bites. In the end, Harper gets my vote.
Just curious, you boneheaded liberals, were the F18's free? Was it free to maintain them?Do you still like the "Sea Kings" Remember the program Chretien canceled costing us hundreds of millions of dollars!! Just so we could watch more "Sea Kings" fall into the ocean!Give your heads a shake! Defending this country costs $$$$ unless you would like our friends to the south to do it for us!!Just saying!
The USA has no money. Their economy is in peril.
Their entertainers are touring Canada like never before.
The Conservatives are out of power, their friends and pundits are out of money.
Stephen Harper is financing their security experts (Winter Olympics $1B, G8/20 $1B, Border security $??B).
The American army cannot afford these planes so Harper will finance their profit with OUR money.
That is MY money not his!
Just think of it, that's less than what we spend on the CBC over 30 years
First, I am in favor of the F35 purchase. I can not believe I took the time to read all of these posts. But as I read, I realized a common pattern. Cons argued using facts, figures, or opinions based on professional experience (as some of our brave men have posted). Everyone else opposing this purchase cries out "liar, liar, pants on fire." If you lefties were in a real debate, you would be laughed at. And then the few of you who did try to use numbers to justify your arguement, should go back to grade 5 math class. One argued that this would cost $1000 in extra taxes per person. First, you have not factored that we are already spending most of that already just keeping our current fleet running, which will disappear because the F35 is a REPLACEMENT aircraft. That aside it will cost every person in this country $1000 over 30 years. That's $33.33 per year, not factoring in population growth. In my mind that is cheap for the only 5th generation aircraft on the planet and my personal sovereignty and safety. I spend more than that on kleenex.
Canadians are very short with memories. Trudeau was the closest thing we've had to a dictator. Subsequent Liberal leaders have decimated the Military. The Conservatives at least have tried to buy the best equipment available for your defense.The F-35 has been ten years in the making with Canadian participation all the way.I guess if Canadians want the economy to fail, HST to rise,carbon tax. Then the Liberals are the way to go. I'm not a Conservative diehard supporter. I do support the best person for the job.Present Liberal leadership just doesn't cut it.
Conservatives...There are more jets to purchase out there than the F35's and the F18's.The F35's cannot fly in the arctic where they are probably most required presently for canada's security!On top of the lack of flexibility of these planes they hid the true costs of these planes.The problem for me is not just the cost of the planes, but the motive for hiding the cost of these useless (for canada) jets.Why do the conservatives lie?Why do supporters shrug it off, this is serious stuff and there has been a nasty unravelling of LIES that this government has been projecting over the last few years.This is^NOT fiscal responsibility.The conservatives are ^NOT accountable, and lack integrity, bring on the election. The conservatives were dirty from the start Which in the past
The math in the article is a bit off and way misleading. Population of Canada is 33.7 Million as of 2009 and at current growth rates will be about 40 Million in 20 years. Not taking into account population growth that works out to $890 over 20 years or about $45.00 per year per person. I pay that every month for ADT monitoring of my home. Unless we want to give up our sovereignty we must be prepared to defend our land. $45.00 a year for 20 years does not strike me as excessive. The aging F18s we have will not last for ever. I agree we need something to replace the fleet. What I find difficult to understand is why the government felt it could not follow the normal tendering process.
Mark - Fort Erie ON said " Also, just curious, how acurate have Page's estimates been in the past? " Incredibly accurate. He started to become an embarrassment to the government since he was exposing their lies, so they cut the funding to his office.
Let's put this in perspective. Conservatives say $16 billion over 20 years, the Liberals are trying to make it look worse by comparing to $30 billionover 30 years. As with anything of course the repair costs are going to get more expensive as it gets older. Comparing a 30 year cost to a 20 year cost is nothing but sensationalism. Iggy also says that's $1,000 for every Canadian, ok, let's assume the Canadian population won't increase for the next 30 years. $1,000 divided by 30 years works out to $33.33 per year per Canadian. (sarcasm) How dare the Conservatives spend such a huge amount on our military. Go away Iggy, all you're doing is complaining to hear your own voice and try to confuse people.
Charlotte said "...and I as a taxpayer am still waiting for our Country to get back the 40,000,000 Liberals stole from us." If you're so well informed how do you feel about the government being sued for a quarter of a billion dollars because the Conservatives got caught in contracting irregularities?
Maybe we can bring back the Avro Arrow. Maybe the US would be willing to sell the plans back to Canada so we can start building them. That was the only truly 100% CDN fighter we ever had!
.
Speakers, and their rulings, are a waste of time. Send them to Gitmo if they don't like our Harper Government.
Regulators, whistleblowers, regulators; away with them. North Korea doesn't even have an opposition party, and Kim Jong-Il is STILL going strong!
Economize, trim, cut, streamline. We need efficiency.
.
"Low-balling" eh Iggy? The Gov't calculated the figures on a 20 yr time frame whereas Page has presented figures on a 30 year plan of repayment. Of course there will be a big difference if you pay over 30 yrs versus 20 years. Has Mr Page diven the figures on a 20 yr plan? Guess not because he does not want Harper to look good. Iggy, you are an idiot and a risk for Canada ! Many of us have said that Harper is not perfect but I will vote for him any day because of the things he has done for Caadians the last 5 yrs. I know I am better off because of him and the Conservatives.
Welcome back Jack. Good luck on taking over the opposition,Canadian voters needs you. Time for the NDP to be the official opposition.Glad your party was able to shed two former NDP premiers who now find themselves near the top of the Liberal party. Anyways lm a Conservative supporter but l believe you show some true grit , courage and have some worthwhile positions. Good luck
I can't help laughing at the Liberals on this site who accuse Harper of being too pro-American or too much like Pres Bush. It was the Liberal leader, Michael Ignatieff, who said America is his country. It was Ignatieff who supported the war in Iraq. It was Ignatieff who wrote a book supporting the use of abductions, torture, assassinations and pre-emptive war in the fight against terrorism. It was Ignatieff who bragged about his connections to American backroom operatives in the White House. It was Ignatieff who compared Canada's flag to a beer label and said the only thing he missed about Canada was Algonquin Park. So if the Liberals want a debate about who is more Canadian and who is more American, I say Harper wins that debate hands down.
NORMAN - terrified of ignatieff??...NOT!!! he is one of the conservatives greatest assets....charismatic?...witty?...yea - something like watching oil based paint dry...why do you think he languishes at 16% popular opinion for capable leader...far far far behind prime minister harper....just an fyi....
These reports about increased costs always use the F-35 with the vertical lift capabilities. We are not purchasing those planes. The only armed branch that I know of who are going to use it are the US marines to replace the aging Harriers. I would like to ask the Liberals why they have such a vendetta against our armed forces.
Keep up the great work Prime Minister Harper!!! You are head and shoulders above this inept crowd of clowns. I am so sick of listening to Iggy and his party rant and rave. Notice how the libs yell and how the Conservatives answer in normal levels in the Hof C. Go Harper Go!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just stop all the nonsense and let's have the election. Canadians won't elect a PM who has repeatedly called himself an American and insulted our flag and our country like Ignatieff has. Canadians won't elect another Liberal government that will cancel a major military procurement for no good reason at great expense to taxpayers. Canadians won't elect a sneering, snide individual like Ignatieff. Canadians won't vote for a Liberal government that deal with tought economic times by slashing health care and defence and increasing taxes. So please let's just put Ignatieff's short, selfish career in Canadian politics out of its misery by having an election now.
OK Iggy, you put up some numbers for us to think about!!!!! How much per person will the cancelation cost every man, woman and child so you can backtrack on what YOUR government started!!!!! Enough already, put forward a confidence motion ahead of the budget and show some guts. I am so tired of your yapping it isn't even funny anymore!!!! Bring on an election and if you win I stand corrected, if not time to head back to school....
Harper government misleads Canadians on every issue and at every turn. Now we have the lack of accountability about the price paid for the fighter jets, not to mention that fact that Harper has given it to one company, or that Canada does not need these at a time when average Canadians could do with better social programmes. Those who call the Harper government honest have something wrong with their minds and need a psychologist. Those who vote for the Cons are either self-interested or stupid or both.
Mulroney rolled the dice. Harper 'wins some loses some'...this is Con leadership gambling with our democracy. Down with the Harper Regime
Charlotte, I don't think it is the media you have to be worried about. The media is only doing their job in trying to get the TRUE facts. I would be more worried about the brainwashing and deceiving Harper has been caught doing. The difference in over 14 billion dollars for these jets is a significant amount of money considering that the "Harper Government" put us into the red by about 50 billion dollars last year. I would trust Kevin Page with the economy more than Steven Harper/Jim Flaherty based on their track records over the past 5 years. As for the naive Conservatives (not all conservatives) who keep bringing up the past Liberal scandals and blunders, I have some advice. When you continue to shovel dirt about the other, you often end up falling in a hole yourself. This strategy is getting old and this government is getting lost with the direction of this great country trying to tarnish the Liberals. We as a nation did do something about the last Liberal government - we voted them out! However, we can also vote out THIS government because they are proving to be just as scandalous as the last!
Statement made by June. "Canada achieved it's sovereignty by being nice we didn't have to fight for it & there's no way we ever could."If you honestly believe your own words, I would have to question your education of past history and the roll Canada played in the not only Two World Wars not to mention the War of 1812. Now how about Korea and Iraq and Afganistan. Not to mention all the other Battles and Wars that Canada has participated in . Please don't fool yourself there has never been anything called a peace keeping mission. Peace is only keep by way of Fear or Fighting. There has been to many Canadians that have Sacrifice their lives for you to dismiss this by saying we have not fought for our Sovereignty .
I'm having trouble believing anything that comes from the Liberals.And now,I'm beginning the think the CBO is spinning the truth a bit too. The original quote was about buying the planes and maintaing them for 20 years.Why is the CBO using 30 years for it's estimate? I also have sympathy for conservatives who think this is a lot of spending.But,if Harper doesn't buy the planes,does anyone belive the Liberals would.The same applies to the ships the navy needs.If Harper doesn't get them built, there will be no ships.Ditto on the new prisons he wants to builf.The ones we have now are old, outdated,and over crowded.Not building some new ones just means more criminals will walk free. If we actually had two parties that believed in a properly equipped military,and jail for those who molest,mudrder,and sell drugs to our kids,the we would not be arguing about this.Since we cannot rely on a Liberal to deal with anything other than bleeding heart,social engineering,if we want new planes or ships,or we want jails for criminals,Harper is the only way we will get that done. And if it's not done before we turf out the Conservatives,it will never get done.The Liberals will spend just as much,except that they'll use the money to support illegal refugess and bring in more expensive social programs.Programs that will ensure there is never any money left over for things we really NEED,mas opposed to thigs we want.
why dont this liberal mind his buisness go home we dont want you
Charlotte, are you familiar with the term "mug?" A mug is somebody who is easily played for a fool, somebody who places trust is a smooth operator and has no idea how little respect that smooth operator has for them. A mug is somebody who would say the things you say about Harper and the Conservatives, after all the disrespect they've shown you - both as a citizen and as a taxpayer.
Someone here actually said: "Canada achieved it's sovereignty by being nice we didn't have to fight for it & there's no way we ever could."
Ever heard of it? It's the reason we were granted sovereignty via the Statute of Westminster.
Once again all the Libs in canada think IGGy and his cronnies are working hard for Canadians, when in fact thats a bunch of BULL. It was the Liberals you sacked our military, airforce and navey down to nothing, closed our bases in Germany and now when we are starting to fix all their past mistakes, yes things are going to cost more but they are needed. If Iggy is so concerned about the cost, all he has to do is look to his party for that. If the Liberals would have kept the up keep and replaced equipment when it should have, we would not be in this state. Never again will I ever vote Liberal or hope to ever see them run our country again.
I just ran the price of a CF-18 at the price of 35 million each in 1977 and accounted for inflation of 350% as that was the calculation for todays cost. The price would be 12 billion per plane I think we are getting a deal. So I have to charge the liberals with over paying.
To the lib/bloc/ndp coalition, I would say put up or shut the hell up! If you have no confidence in the government, then be sincere and vote no confidence and force an election and let the people decide. Your focus on non-policy issues does nothing to help this country and we are sick and tired of your tantrums. Again, put up or shut up!!
I'd vote for Prime Minsiter Harper any day, he's run an honest and very hard working government and I praise them all, this bashing of his party is awful. He's the best Prime Minister I've ever seen or heard. Anyway Harper has my vote as I've been listening to ALL politics radio and TV and see that they have tried to bash Harper and his party for years now and I say hopefully the best man will win, Harper in my opinion, but if not guess there's nothing I can do except keep voting for conservatives. We know what happened to the provincial NDP and what happened to the last fed liberals and I as a taxpayer am still waiting for our Country to get back the 40,000,000 Liberals stole from us. We as Canadians can't be brainwashed by the media and opposition parties I HOPE.
I think what I'm sensing is that most of the Harper minions commenting here are actually terrified of Iggy. Clearly he's more intelligent, witty and charismatic than Harper, by any measure. I suppose this is why the conservative always have to make it personal against Iggy. He'll have Harper ducking under his sweater in the first minute of the debate. "He'll be messin' with Harpo until he's done." I can't wait! Bring on the election.
Harper thinks Canadians are too stupid to build our own planes, he wants to give our hard earned tax dollars to hi USA buddies. He didn't think Canadians were smart enough to make the signs for the action plan so he gave an American company 140 million to make signs. We need to vote this incompetent government out now.
Does this report account for inflation? what would the total cost at the end of the CF 18 useful life be after it is adjusted for inflation? Remember, when the CF 18s were purchased, gas was around what 20c per litre? A television was 150$ Also the report should take into consideration that a very large portion of that "estimate" will go into canadian companies! We need our soverignty! I dont want to see american bases in canada to defend north american airspace, china and russia arent building stealth jets just for airshows people!!!!
I will say that yes I am a conservative supporter, yes I am in the Army and proud to serve. I must stae that I do not agree with all the decisions of the PM but I do believe he has done a good job. When it comes to the price of these planes all costs are estimates, I do not care when I want a Canadian pilot over my head I can have it with this plane. The Liberals complained that Canadian companies were not able to bid on this. There are no manufactuers of military aircraft in this country, if we had them not only would it be financially unviable due to the extreme costs of just building 65 planes every 35 years. our export control regulations on weapons would make it impossible for them to compete or make foreign sales.Steph good to see another brother on here.
The Harper government is a bunch of lairs, they can no longer be trusted, we need an election now, before they bankrupt our great nation. We have no need for these war planes, if China Russia or the USA attack Canada these planes would be shot down before they got in the air. Canada achieved it's sovereignty by being nice we didn't have to fight for it & there's no way we ever could. Build Canadian jets or find something less expensive.
This alleged report is nothing more than political in nature. Being very well acquainted with the ACTUAL costs of defence procurement, I have to ask what he is lumping in with it? Perhaps the salaries of the ENTIRE CF, not to mention his own princely income, plus a whole host of other costs that are completely unrelated? Page is entirely too political and needs to realize that his over inflated sense of importance is undermining his office.
Page hasn't been correct in his estimates since he's been on the job as he has been way off on the deficit projection targets.As far as these jets are concerned he is basing his figures on a thirty year projection rather than the governments twenty and I don't know why the reason for that as it is not stated.If he is only there as a Liberal shill than the government shouldnt be wasting tax dollars on this guy because it seems the only time he pops his head up is to provide budgetary information it is usually wrong and of a political nature.The other thing that is not factored in with all these numbers is the money and jobs Canadian companies will benefit from as there will be many made to supply our allies.If this project can supply several decades of work for Canadian aerospace companies for foreign export than that has to amount for something.
All you People yaping about the dishonest conservatives buying these particular Fighter Jets, do you know of any alternative?Does the Watch Dog even tell us who else make a plane that is acceptable to our Armed services. How does he know what is right for them. What are his qualifications other than Bean Counting? I would like to know.Do you have any Family flying the old almost done jets at present?I think not. Remember when the Liberals canceled the helicopter s and paid out billions in fees for cancelling.Remember when our Service Men had to bum or hitch hike a ride to the UN and other wars shameful and embarrassing.where does the Watch Dog get his information? Or is most of it speculation of what might be?
All you Conservatives who say "spend it, spend it, spend it!" What if it was 40 billion, 50, 60? How much before it's too much. When it's the choice between guns and butter, the jingoists always choose guns.
CHINA reveals stealth fighter , iran reveals stealth aircraft, japan unvails steath fighter RUSSIA develops steath bomber and fighter, GROW UP FOLKS we need this fighter see the truth all this is fact!
We need these toys to go and protect our interests in oil rich countries! The pay-back to our greedy oil companies is much more important than the cost of these toys. King Stephen Harper has a serious agenda. He is following Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.
These jets cannot be used for defense. So unless Canada is going to globe trot picking wars like the US - these are useless. We can buy more than 9 fighter jets (dual engine, usable in the arctic) for the price of 1 of these jets. The difference - the CPC wouldn't get to steal any Mulroney "brown bags" of Money.
"Could cost" means what? And did you notice how he included 4% per year and then he goes to say that it may be wrong. Now would you want him to do your taxes? ELECTION please I can't stand people who find only bad instead of good.
The PBO has been badly discredited already. In particular with his gestimates regarding our debt and budget. l will say one thing though he is certainly dogged in his persuit to damage the Conservative government as much as possible. Its obvious the Conservative government was naive and made a mistake when they hired this liberal hack. Sadly our politics have come to this. When government employees are able to grab the media glare as they turn on their employers of the Conservative government and the Canadian taxpayer.
Hey Tony, to answer why don't we develop our own plane..? Well a few google searches on the Program Cost of the F35, is reported being almost $300 Billion, with some expecting it to hit $1Trillion. So in watching the House squabble over 30Billion over 30years.....well I'd say we'd have better luck creating world peace.
$16 billion works out to over $500 per person. More per taxpayer. $30 billion works out to $1000 per person. More per taxpayer. It is not a question if the fighter is the best. It is a question if every Canadian taxpayer can afford over $1000 in extra taxes. Remember the army's vehicles have been going non-stop over bad roads and IEDs in Afghanistan for the last 9 years and need replacement. And the navy's frigates will have to be replaced soon also.
With my Defined Benefit Pension about to be cut significantly due to the Conservatives and BLOC choosing Junk Bond Traders over Senior Citizens ; I can ill afford to buy new tires for my aging car much less contiibute more taxes to purchase these new planes.
If Canada is not relevant enough to sit on the UN Security Council ; let those that are buy these planes and contribute their military to UN sanctioned projects. Time for us to sit back and let others do their fair share.
Page costed it over 30 years and the govt did 20 years. I guess there would be a difference. Usually as things get older maintenance costs increase as well. What exactly is the Liberals outrage based on. Why should Pages numbers be taken as gosple? There just estimates as well.
Under a billion per year is cheap for what we are getting. By being in the F35 project with our allies, our industries in Canada will receive billions in contracts to build parts and technology for the whole project F35 project (perhaps a 1000 or 2000 F35's). Where does Mr. Page's report figure these billions into the cost as a benefit to Canada. The fact is he doesn't because he is a Liberal at heart and his bias is well known. Is it possible with the jobs created and the materials sold, the project could be neutral?
Just gets better and better. See a pattern here folks. I feel sorry for the fiscal and social conscious Conservative Party Members of Canada. The HARPER GOVERNMENT is Hiding so much from us all. Crime spending??? F-35 spending???and wait till the details of the new BORDER security comes out ???Hopefully before Wikileaks eh lol.
So the $451,000,000 each these little darlings are going to costs includes spare parts and maintenance. So am I right in thinking that if we write off 10 or so during training we can look for a huge credit on the maintenance bill?
Nice thought Canada building its own aircraft, but that would not make much sense economically. The time and money to develop and build a modern military aircraft is beyond our capacity due to the technologies involved. I love this concept that we ask for bids re the new fighter aircraft. We would receive one for a new aircraft, the CF-35 and then a few re-worked' ones, included the current CF-18 which would have our pilots flying decades old designs that no one else wants. The Aussies bought some F-18 Super Hornets to 'make do' until they receive their F-35's which pretty much tells you what they're good for. This is one decision that the politicians really should listen to the Air Force suggestions. Unless any of them have a few hundred hours strapped into a jet fighter, they really don't have a clue what they're talking about.
Theo said " I have voted for Conservatives before but I will not vote for a stupid dictator driven by a hidden agenda and ideology."I knew it was only a mere matter of time that some Liberal or socialist would bring up the ol' bugaboo 'hidden agenda'. It's the common standby argument when logic fails. As to why Canada can't develop its own fighters, those of you wrongly complaining about $30 billion spread over a very long 30 years, will be joyous to know that it will cost five to ten times times that amount to develop our own fighter. Designing fighters is not like designing cars, you know.
Use the ransom of 60% of federal taxes Quebec extorts from Canadians to pay for the jets. It's approximately "10 BILLION DOLLARS".
We need the fighters, don't want to be sitting ducks here in defenceless Canada.
$29.3 billion.A breathtaking waste of money - twice our yearly federal deficit. To defend ourselves against . . . against . . . Just who are these to defend us against? The Taliban Air Force?
Let me get this straight...
The initial cost projection was $16 billion over 20 years, or .8 billion per year.
Now it's $29.3billion over 30 years, or .98 billion per year.
That's an increase of less than 20% over more than 2 years.
The price of gas has gone up more than that in the last 3 months!
It also takes into account inflation over an additional 10 year period for maintenance.
Some of you seem awfully blinded by your political affiliation.
I'm not Liberal or Conservative... I'm "Canadian". Remember that?
I don't care who's in power, as long as they govern in the best interest of Canadians. And the fact is that being able to defend ourselves with something a little more than sticks and rocks IS in the best interest of Canadians.
Get a grip people. At some point we have to put our big boy diapers on and realize that we can't rely on our big Brother to the south to keep looking after us.
After the next election Stephen Harper will finally get what he deserves but it won't be what he wants. When Stephen Harper is finally gone from Canadian politics he won't be missed by anyone and that includes Conservatives.
I have no doubt that this deal is indeed of high importance to our great Canadian military, but the real question is WHY CANNOT WE DEVELOP A FIGHTER JET OF OUR OWN?The English, French and Russian are proud enough nations to develop their own fighter jet. Don’t you think that it is not the time to join this prestige club?. By developing a fighter jet in Canada we can create thousands of jobs across the country, and more importantly we don’t have to rely on other country for our national defence.
I don't understand why Canada doesn't build fighters and other military aircraft, we have the technology to do it. It would create a large industry employing lots of people, keeping them in Canada paying taxes and buying materials from here as well as selling the aircraft. Was the Avro Arrow really the height of Canadian aeronautic technology?
The Libs are in full gear to find any specs of bad things to say about the Conservatives. Quite lame if you ask me and arrogant because they obviously do not care about Canadians but only about them and their thirst for power. I do not want an election just like the majority of Canadians but they do. So if it has to be I would like my fellow Canadians to send a message to Iggy and his buffoons a clear message with the lowest results for them in their history and a MAJORITY for PM Harper and his Conservatives. He was at the helm during one of the worst recession in history and took us out of there with minimum damages compared to other countries. I would even agree to have Mr. Layton as the Opposition Leader. I do not always agree with Mr Layton but at least he is willing to propose ideas from time to time (some of them are actually very good) instead of whining like Iggy. To my fellow Quebecers just remember that it was PM Harper and his Conservatives that was finally able to recognize you, beautiful people that you are, as a Nation not the Liberals. For those of you who have not clued in already, I am a proud member of the military and proud to be Canadian but I do not see myself serving this beautiful country if the Liberals were to gain power. It would send us to the stone throwing age again (I will never forget what the Chretien government put us through!!!) and would rather retire.
I think many of you are missing the point. The cost of the F-35 is not the primary issue here; the questions of transparency, government accountability and open competition are.If the Conservative government witheld the true cost of these jets and selected the F-35 without considering alternatives and/or opening competition to other competitors, that is a significant problem of democratic governance. I can't believe that some of you would spend all or most of your comments berating each other rather than seeing the significant issue this really is.
The current fighter jets which we now employ are sadly outdated, these people have no problem sending our fighting men and women into battle totally unequiped.When we inistially sent our men into battle they did not even have the appropiate uniforms leaving them in danger and a complete laughing stock.I would like to see these people who insist on bitching about the money being spent supplying our fighting men and women with the proper tools needed to bring them home safe and allow them to do the job they were sent to do, be sent to the front lines and see if they can cope.
Qick question, dont know if its been asked what was the cost of the CF-18's purchased by the Liberals and the stated cost when they were purchased? Doubt that the truth was told about them but hindsight is always good. It dont matter what is purchased, when the goverment is involved it's going to cost more. Just look at how much helicopters are going to cost and there isnt many of them in the air yet.
Canadian federal taxes are collected so socialist Quebec (who gets 60% or almost 10 billion of the treasury) can piss it away on free IVF treatments costing $30,000.00 per woman...then we should cut off Quebec of this nonsense and use it for our greater Canadian good with defense.
The liberals I hear are buying Bi Planes for the military. This way they give themselves a raise with the money they save. The liberals have mis lead Canadians for years so why are they any different!
Instead of the Liberals keep on trying to destroy the PC why not help the present Government and make everything easy to everybody...That's our military is behind to every new thing because of this kind of system. Nobody is perfect at all even you Liberals has a lot of dirty doings. Why don't you just shut up and make yourself useful to enhance our military. You use all kinds of things just to win back the power and when you are on the driver seat you will do much worst. No not anyone really wanted to help the people...all of you wants only the power and the billions of dollars that you can make when you get the driver seat.
Stop sending Quebec 10 billion dollars a year or "60%" of federally collected Canadian taxes. Then we'll have money to pay for our defense.
Ha - we all know how good the Liberals are at purchasing military equipment, subs - helicopters - those were real deals! Also, just curious, how acurate have Page's estimates been in the past? If he has been acurate consistantly - he's worht listening to, if not, well I wonder if there is some underlying motive.
Looks like the mindless followers of Dictator Harper are all here today trying to blame liberals for this and deflect attention, surprised no one mentioned Iggy's stint in the US. I have voted for Conservatives before but I will not vote for a stupid dictator driven by a hidden agenda and ideology.
Here is the reality. The military (not the politicians) have come out and said that we need these. The CF-18s are filled with old technology that in some cases don't integrate with the command and control systems of our allies. All Iggy wants to do is buy MiGs from his Russian relatives and have it so that when the Russians do fly over our airspace, our aircraft will light up on a Russian radar like a Christmas tree. We need to have a modern Armed Forces; the world is too dangerous to put in the hands of 30, 40 or even 50 year old technology.The other thing about the F-35s is jobs it will create - have the Liberals thought about that? No only is the aircraft going to have parts and pieces built in Canada but look at the support, training, etc that will be associated.Lets face it my fellow Canadians, we need to focus on the economy; not petty things like the cost of an aircraft over 30 years from now - the benefits out weigh the cost.In the name of a strong armed forces, a top of the line economy, tough on crime..........[x] Conservatives
Jonathan Loblaw said "How much combat use have our CF-18's actually seen over their lifetimes?"Let's see here: the Persian Gulf conflict and the Balkan wars. Are you saying we should increase the number of wars Canada participates in just to justify the purchase of new fighters? With Liberal or NDP socialist logic like this, it's a wonder that Canada has any type of armed forces at all.
Yup, honesty and transparency from our Government.. NOT.. Kevin Page, Appointed in March 2008.. I wonder who was Prime Minister that day ( sarcasm )..
If we don't hold any more G8-20 meetings, we should have the money for these fighters, since it averages to a billion a year.My only beef, is these fighters are a jack of all trades, excellent at nothing in particular, but mediocre for everything.
Maybe the best outcome for everyone will be an election with a Conservative loss. Then the Conservatives will turf Harper and perhaps they'll find a more moderator leader who can unite the country, instead of constantly seeking to divide us. It's not going to take very many Conservatives to see this and change their vote to make a difference. This gives me an idea for a Facebook group. . .since that's how things get done now.
Get the dam planes already !!!!!!
Canada's "self" national defense should be done by "Canadians" with Canadian equipment and if we need new expensive military jets to moderate our borders and sovereignty so be it. Canada has to grow up and look after its own interests especially in the resource rich North that is now being challenged by several countries including Russia. Now if Canadians can be complicit allowing separatist Quebec (calls itself a nation and shuns Canadian identity) to extort "60%" of all federally pan-Canada collected taxes, to fund its socialism on steroids for its wonderful world of French Disney Land, then we should be able to justify money to defend our borders. Right now Quebec hogs 60% of the federal transfers paying for whimsical luxuries such as 'FREE' IVF treatments (in vitro fertilization) that cost an astounding "over" $30,000.00 per "case"! And then there's their $7/day daycare. This amounts to almost 10 BILLION dollars of Canadians money a year to that province/country/whatever the hell it calls itself. Let's cut off the astronomical amount Quebec bullies out of Canada and use it for our collective pan-wide national defense.
"....commentators pile on at once saying identical talking points."....It appears to be the same talking points to those who are in denial because those very points represent the truth of the matter.
Guess what, people? The CF-18s also need maintenance right now which costs money. Any new fighter, whether the F-35 or the Super Hornet, will require signing and paying for a maintenance contract. Those who argue against the cost of new fighters have no clue how a modern air forces operates. To complain about maintenace contracts is to complain about having any aircraft in the air force period. But that's the Liberal way!
I find it amusing that the Liberals are throwing stones at the cost of the F-35 program. They initiated it. They developed and approved the policy that calls for it. This project did not happen overnight; the Liberals have been approving this through the 90's and until the Conservatives were elected.A little education, for you and Mr Page (who doesn't have any military nor acquisition experience, just throwing some numbers around). After a 15yr project the Seaking replacement was approved by Mulroney gov't. Chretien campaigned against it, although the Liberals had set the policy requiring the aircraft and had been approving the self same project for most of that 15yrs.Chretien gets in and kills the project. But the Liberals never go back and change the defence policy. So now another 15 yrs goes by and the project gets approved, again. Guess what, it is just as complex if not more so and it costs a whole lot more money. We'll cast aside the men that have been killed and put at risk in the interim thanks to the Liberals.Any weapon system of size costs a lot to develop. Ergo it's expensive to buy. Companies want in to sell parts. Since the cold war there are not that many big projects and the numbers built are much smaller. Hence, the selection of the vehicle, in this case the F-35, was made much earlier in the project (with the concurrence of the Liberals in the early 2000's btw).As for not buying anything..and staying out of conflicts because we don't make a difference, I suggest you read about the Medak Pocket, Desert Storm and...oh yeah...Chamberlain's speech about "Peace in Our Time" after his chat with Mr Hitler and allowing him to take the Sudatenland if he would just stop there. He didn't.
Unlike these nutso Liberals I want to be proud of our military and equip them to do their jobs properly. The aircraft we have not are outdated and need replacement. This new plane fits the requirement.
PLEASE liberal posters: READ THE REPORT. The Government cost projections for support of the planes is $300 million/year over 20 years. Mr. Page's report is based on cost estimate over a 30 YEAR period. That adds $3 Billion to the estimate right there. Plus Page added in an almost $4 Billion cost for "upgrades and overhaul". They are NEW planes. They won't need overhaul for at least 20 years. Just on these two points alone Mr. Page's estimates ADDED $7 BILLION to the price tag. He also freely admits different methodology will result in diferent numbers.
30$Billion Over 30Yrs thats less cost then it is to run the CBC !dont forget the economic spinoff to the Aero industry in Canada, Of which most of it is in the Montreal area. But wait for the Liberals to critique it Anything Millitary the Liberals cheapout on. Call an election TIme for a Conservative Majority , put an end to this Socialist Opposition.And if there is an Election, Dont Let Elizabeth May in the Leaders Debates
I'm sure if Iggy were in power the Canadian Forces would only have paper airplanes made in his Federally Funded Daycares.
OkBy the way this is not a bomber, its a fighter.This is what it cost to have fighter aircraft and all future fighters are going to be stealth. People, unless we start building our own again, this is what it will cost. Even the Japanese have designed there own future stealth fighter, since the U.S. would not sell them the F-22.
"Good Lord, the Liberals will do anything to make the PC's look bad if they can"Huh? Are you under the impression Kevin Page is a Liberal? Or do you just think that anyone who says anything negative about the Conservatives has to be a Liberal? He's parliament's budget officer, he tells it how it is based on his figures. Sometimes it works out for the government, sometimes not. The fact that posters here are twisting this into a Liberal bash shows how attack oriented the Conservative machine is, weak.
Do we want or need the F-35's? The questions which must be answered is, "What are our requirements?"
Canada is a unique country which has long isolated areas along three oceans. We need long range patrol aircraft with fighter capabilities. We do NOT need fighters with some patrol capabilities.
That is why when the CF-18s were acquired, one of the prime criterea was dual engines. If you have a failure in the far north you can still make it home on one engine. With one engine you are doomed.
The F-22 with two engines would be a better choice BUT the US will not allow sale of these aircraft to foreign states, not even to their most trusted allies!
Canada needs patrol aircraft. We are not about to engage in arial battles.
Since this "estimate" is over 30 years, that doesn't seem like a lot. However, who, other than someone with superhuman powers can "estimate" anything over that long of a period. Anything can happen during a 30 year period, and the Government "estimate" and Kevin page's "estimate" are just that. Over that 30 year period, Canada will see a benefit in employment regarding maintenance, thus more spending into the economy. Did Kevin Page also "estimate" what that benefit would be? Probably not. At any rate, the military does need new planes, and to delay buying them due to the opposition saying there should be a bidding process, will just mean that they won't be ready by the time the old ones become obselete, and after all the "bidding" they will likely end up with the same result anyway. These estimates are over 30 YEARS people.Some of you seem to think the whole cost is going to be in this years budget, because you chose NOT to read the full article.
It seems as all the conservatives commentators pile on at once saying identical talking points. Are you guys all in the same room or is it just one person?
The plane purchase is the right thing to do to protect our sovereignty and our military. Good to see the Conservatives protecting our troops and the Canadian way. Remember this magnificent purchase by Paul Martin's Liberal govt: top Canadian navy official is defending the purchase of second-hand British submarines. Ottawa and the navy have faced criticism for buying four used diesel submarines, which cost Canada $750 million to acquire and modify.Canada bought the four second-hand Upholder class subs from Britain four years ago. Last week the navy announced the submarines had been sidelined because of cracks discovered in one vessel.But, Vice-Admiral Ron Buck, Chief of Maritime Staff, said Saturday the submarines were well worth the money."Absolutely a good buy. We paid less than a quarter of the cost of what it would have cost to construct submarines on our own," said Buck.The cracks were found on valves in HMCS Chicoutimi, which is still in England.The navy will conduct an investigation into whether the other three vessels it bought have similar problems.Canada has taken possession of two of the submarines, HMCS Victoria and HMCS Windsor.The Victoria has a dent in its hull that will cost about $400,000 to fix.It was recently discovered that the Royal Australian Navy rejected these same subs almost two decades ago.
While I am somewhat undecided as to the necessity of the F-35's, those who say it should be put out for tender really don't know what they are talking about. That is something like saying that that you made a decision to buy a new Porsche 911 but you were going to approach Ford and Chrysler for a better price.Lockheed-Martin designed and built the F-35 and it is the only aircraft in it's class. Russia is the only place in the world that might possibly be able to produce a competitor and it is rather unlikely that we would be buying from them.
Why didn't the headline read that the new F35 fighter jets will cost less than $1 billion per year? That is the mathematics too, and on that basis I would say that the purchase is a real bargain. In addition, it is a travesty to ever send Canadians into a conflict situation without confidence that they have overwhelming superiority. Let the other poor devils commit their people into a valiant but hopeless sacrifice.
Good Lord, the Liberals will do anything to make the PC's look bad if they can. I'm sure that if Iggy was elected PM he would quickly see what country has old and I mean old jets for sale. It will not matter that you can not get parts for them and that they are falling apart he will buy them anyway because they are cheap and he can say Look I got the Air Force new planes. Look at the sub the Liberals bought in what 2002, they are still out of service and one of them killed a salior just bring the junk back to Canada. Is this what we want for our pilots.
The way these stories get sensationalized is exhausting. 30 billion over 30 years, if Page's figure is right, is about a billion a year. At this point, our military has a yearly budget of about 21 billion per year, and I submit that a 1 billion investment in F-35s is a good investment in our air force. Of course, we also save some cash by not having to keep up the maintenance of the hornets.
Typical liberal media, the headlines makes one think that it might finally be about something that matters to canadians but 90%of the article is about some trivial crap brought up by liberal proganda and nit-picking...it seems if they were in the least concerned about the tax payers of this country they would be thinking more about paying back the money stolen by the liberal party even over the last few years....rather than trying to focus on a bunch of little issues.....
Now back to the subject this article was susposed to be about...new jets for our military, its about time the canadian govt started spending some money to help rebuild it after the liberals all but distroyed it....and what about the helicopters they bought then changed their minds but ended up paying almost the same amount of money in breach of contract and ended up with nothing..and this dosent even touch on all of the serious scandels we have had to pay for at the hands of the liberals...ie...gun registry, e-health and the list goes on and on...but oh no we have to worry about the PC spending their own money six or seven years ago....
Its high time that we elected a majority conservative govt so they can get on with running this country and continue taking us out of the world recession..
Can anyone imagine the shape this country would be in if god forbid the liberals were in charge during the recession....makes on shudder with the thought dosen`t it..they would have had to open up another number for us because we would be worse off than 3rd world countrys....
Who cares any more what Kevin Page has to say? He's wrong more often than the weatherman. Every time he speaks is to say it will be worse than the Conservatives say it will be. According to Page unemployment would be higher than the Conservatives estimates...unemployment is lower than even the Conservatives guessed. Page said the deficit would be higher and the GDP would be lower but lo and behold, the deficit is lower and the GDP is higher than the conservatives budgeted for.
The Harper Government has to go. This is outrageous. Healthcare is suffering in this nation, and instead of directing taxpayer resources into programs for the betterment of us all, they're putting it into a first strike weapon thereby turning Canada from a peacekeeping nation into a belligerent one. In addition, they propose to spend all this money without even tendering it. They were elected with a minority on a platform of accountability and transparency and they are anything but. Moreover, Harper would be king if he could. He has regularly suspended the democratic process in Canada. As he said, we wouldn't recognize Canada when he got through with it, and we certainly don't!
No it wonÂ’t cost $29.3 billion, we have all heard reports from these so called 'watch dogs' and weÂ’ve all come to realize they have as much credibility as a weather forecaster. We have no reason to believe these elitists and their theoretical beliefs, the plain and simple truth of the matter is they donÂ’t like the Conservatives otherwise they wouldÂ’ve caught the long gun registry blunder the Liberals created.
Of course, this is Kevin Page's 'opinion' of what these jets might cost, and things tend to cost a lot where Kevin's 'opinion' is involved. I assume the cost of the planes will come somewhere between the two figures. I certainly will still support this venture as it is a first class investment into our military.
Harpo lied and misled Parliament and the people of Canada by reporting only the down payment for this high tech junk. What can the Canadian Air Force possibly do with these super power aircraft? Come off it. What a poseur outfit. Buying expensive toys will not make Canada a super power. We have a military roughly equivalent to that of Argentina or Brazil. We need to stop pretending we have a first rate military that needs the trappings of a super power like the US, China or Russia. Think cheap and low tech. Remember, the Sherman tank was a piece of junk compared to the Tiger but the Tiger was too complicated and too expensive so fight a war so they all became battlefield ornaments. Much like the F35. The Sherman tank prevailed over the high tech Tiger because Germany could produce only a handful of Tigers compared to the thousands of Shermans produced. We don't need these aircraft, we can't use them and we wouldn't know how even if we could. Wake up Canada. This is a waste of tax payers money. Call the election now and lets end this nonsense and Stevie Sweater's slicked back reign of terror.
When do we realize that anything we purchase to replace the Hornets will cost billions and it's better to get something for those billions rather than buying something cheaper and outdated and have to spend more billions to replace them later. Don't kid yourselfs, this isn't about getting a better valued plane or taxpayer dollars, this is polaticians trying to get elected, nothing else. The "Fiberals" held a competition a LONG time ago and the F-35 won out.
As for criticizing Liberals for lack of platform, may I remind you all that the Conservative government released their party platform 9 days, 9 DAYS, before the last federal election and that was mostly cobbled together from talking points that worked for other parties.
Obviously the Opposition and the media have tried and convicted the Conservatives before there has even been a "trial". I am not saying the Government hasn't had missteps, but a lot of it has been blown out of proportion by a overzealous media and the Liberals that will do anything to regain power. What is disturbing is during a political panel on some news shows, the Conservatives never get a chance to defend themselves or make a point as the Liberals are constantly talking over top of them and interupting. The moderators seem to let this happen on a regular basis. Also when the news shows get some one to explain anything, they always seem to be Liberal prof's from a local University. The media are very powerful in this country and could make or break an election outcome with their biased, sensational "headlines" which are all that a lot of people read. Anything the Liberal MP's do,( a couple of them that expensed their condos, one that had an accident while driving under the influence, Liberal senators that don't even show up, and also some opposition MP's that have used the same "in out" scheme during their election campaigns) gets "swept under the rug by the media. These are story lines for a few minutes while anything a Conservative does makes "headlines" for weeks. You Harper haters can call me "stupid', "neocon" "Harpercrite" "uneducated" or anything else you like (sticks and stones) but the bottom line is...my family and I are better off now after 5 years of a Conservative Government than we were under many years of a Liberal one.Just remember that Liberals will promise anything to get elected ( national daycare, getting rid of the GST) , but once in power, they don't deliver.
Honestly, Im tired of hearing about how much these planes cost. The liberals of the 90s invested millions into helping developing this program and now they're complaining when the government actually buys them!! Our F-18's are old and need to be replaced eventually. The opposition likes to argue just for the sake of arguing...stop wasting time!
Step 1:
Pay down the deficit.
Step 2:
Everything else.
We are in a deficit situation. That should take precedence over fancy jets. How about spending on things that Canadians actually need instead of a bunch of toys that won't ever actually get used. How much combat use have our CF-18's actually seen over their lifetimes? If we had never bought the CF-18's, would any of the conflicts we have been involved in turned out any different? I challenge anyone to prove that they would have.
Everybody complains about the Liberal party, people have very short minds when it comes to public finances. The current Conservative government, also the old Mulroney government have put this country into large deficits. After Liberal governments have cleaned the mess of the previous governments. When will people start to look at the mess ConservativeÂ’s have left with deficits? That has taken 5-10 years to clean up each time. They the Stephen Harper Conservative Government keep cutting taxes to the extent there is not enough cash flow to cover current programs.
They had us in deficits even before the economies went down the toilet. Just good tricky accounting. People have to start looking at long term fixes. We need to get back to two Federal parties Liberal, Conservative. As long as there is the NDP, Block, Green Party. The vote is broken down too much to form a majority. My though for the day.
These planes will cost each Canadian between $1000 and $1500 each. A family of four, $4000-$6000. The Government of Harper (GoH) has abandoned its core fiscal conservative values (along with its social conservative values). GoH will have to raise taxes to offset the costs of these Rolls Royce planes (in addition to billions for new prisons, 5-10 billion for renovating Parliament, billions and billions elsewhere). Even when factoring in inflation, the GoH has outspent any previous administration - and is the largest government. Why is Harper burying us in debt - which has been going on before the recession that the GoH didn't see happen until we were months into it. Where is the small government? The Federal Government has never been bigger. Thousands of Harper friends have paid the GoH for lucrative jobs. Patronage appointments are at an all-time high in the GoH. These are not my traditional conservative values: small government, fiscal and social responsibility. When all is said and done (and factoring in interest etc.), the Canadian debt will near one trillion ($1,000,000,000,000) by the end of this decade - 60-70% racked up by the high spending GoH - borrow and spend conservatives!
Why does Canada need a stealth bomber, when we could equip our men on the ground much better for $30 billion. Hell we could put ourselves on the forefront of combat battle armour technology if we invested $30 billion in a program like that. Something like that would actually be profitable in selling it back to the rest of the world.So again I reiterate, why does Canada need a stealth bomber?
Spend it. The CF is in need. Folks: If you enjoy the freedom of openly speaking your mind about how horrible the Gov't is, allow this purchase to go ahead. Afterall, it's what keeps you safe from Intl threats.
So the Conservatives made a few 'mistakes'. They are still the best party to govern this country. The liberals and ndp and block are one HUGE mistake.
I don’t understand why this is such a tough sell for Canadians. I think it would be a good idea for McKay to show the Nation what these planes can do. Maybe a grey cup fly over, or some kind of public display. I’ve seen so many missed opportunities to market this plane it’s laughable. We are trying to sell the purchase to tax payers aren’t we? We have to move forward at some point and the cost will be great, but after doing my own homework (a responsibility of all citizens) I fully back the purchase of these planes. They can control an entire battle field from a distance without having to put young men’s lives in harms way. Its not an issue of buying these planes versus buying drones, its an issue of having these super flying computers control a hundred drones while “quarterbacking” a war zone. They are a tool of future combat that will save lives. You say the cost is (X), I say it’s worth every penny. Watch Nova “Battle of the X-planes” and do a little digging on the facts of what we are buying, you owe it to your country and to those who die in war.
This contract ridiculous and idiotic. First the F35 don't have the necessary range for north of Canada and we don't need this aircraft. Second, we should have bought the new F18 at half the price. Theses Aircraft would suite the Airforce better at a better price. This goverment is out of control and we pay the price tag.
"The opposition parties have complained that the contract wasn't opened up to a bidding process, and Canadian companies were therefore excluded." Please! Canada has been out the the fighter-building business since the Avro Arrow was scrapped half a century ago! I doubt they could name one aerospace company capable of even offering a bid. It is obvious that those in the opposition parties have no idea how long it takes to develop the expertise needed to build such a machine, let alone the time needed to develop the fifth generation technology we need in replacement planes. The Liberals, aided and abetted by the NDP and Bloc would throw away the millions we have already spent in the development of the F-35 to open a competition, - and find there is but a single player - the F-35! That means more money lost, as we would not get the same deal per plane on a future contract, even at the budget officer's claimed overage. This whole deal is all smoke and mirrors. i have to wonder whether the Liberals, and Mt. Ignatieff in particular, are actually interested in Canada's well being, since they spend more time enforcing 19th century rules of order etc than actually contributing reasonable alternatives to the policies put forward by the government. All they do is obstruct the actual workings of the body elected to develop laws and policies that benefit their employers - the people of Canada. They would rather spend many hours berating a minister for a document she required to be changed - her prerogative - than actually helping out nation.
30 BILLION DOLLARS!? Why would the conservatives commit us to this KNOWING that there was a penalty for canceling? And why would they lie to us about it? If they think it's funny to screw the Canadian taxpayer, I've got news for them. WE don't.
There is a very good reason why CON is in the word CONservative. Now I hope Canadians will finally wake up and realize that these CONservatives have no ethics or morals at all. They were always slaming the Liberals, saying how unethical and unmoral they were. Now they are doing the exact same thing. Bring on another election, I see the CONs winning ANOTHER minority government, which proves to everyone that supports them, Canadians do NOT trust or believe them.
@Mark, my understanding is that these planes are going to the north ... not overseas into wars. I could be wrong, but I believed these planes are suppose to be for northern security.
This government is out of control. Hiding facts, hiding numbers, forging documents -- how deep does it think our pockets are? Any wise business is going to open a major purchase by shopping around. The F35s are no longer the choice of many of our nato allies because of the single engine issue. And there is no contract, no cancellation fee. Stop the lying!
We need the planes. The military says so. Heck, even the previous Liberal government was on-board when they were in power. Yes, it comes with a hefty price tag, but should Canada's commitment to its own security be cheap or hollow? Nobody wants to --heaven forbid -- pay for anything, but the alternative leaves Canada unable to do anything but lodge feeble protests when its own interests and security are threatened. Is that what we what? Buy the planes.
To Eric Dempster ; AKA armchair general next time I deploy I prefer to have a real pilot over me not a drone being controlled by someone who does not have FULL SA of the battlespace looking through a video camera!!!!!!!!
The Conservatives have blown it, no doubt. Very unfortunate. But it is not like the Liberals have clean hands either. Their mess was much bigger than what we are dealing with now. My vote goes to the lesser of two evils, and that is the Conservatives. We are much better off under them. Hopefully the Conservatives will learn the lesson that power corrupts, especially if you enjoyed it for too long. Entitlement stinks, whether it come come the Liberals or Conservatives.
Here's a question for you..... How much will it cost us to scrap the plane and bring in one that the Liberals want? The Liberals and others are trying to get us so caught up in their "scandal" politics that even the media are not asking them what they would do instead. The media is just slobbering for an election that accountability is nowhere to be seen. I challenge CTV and others to begin asking Iggy what his plan is, what his costs are going to be or if he even has an idea other than attack mode. I refuse to vote for a party who complains only, where are Iggy's platforms and ideas? Again, media, stop being so focused on a potential election that you are forgetting to keep everyone accountable.
Here we go again wasting money on a plane that will cost us tons of money. He did not even shop around to see if we could get better planes at a cheaper price,he could of gone to France, Russia and to even Great Britain and could of gotten a very good deal on a fighter plane at a very good price. Mexico as purchase several Sukoy-37 Russian fighters and they bought the export version of these planes at an excellent price and they will be delivered by next year by the Russians with tones of parts and they will supply the training on how to maintain and fly these planes properly. Thanks to Harper now we are stuck with these planes and the price tag boy I cannot wait to get rid of this man and his gov, soon, please Mr. Harper call an election I want you OUT OF POWER BEFORE YOU PUT THIS COUNTRY IN THE POOR HOUSE.
We need these jets. Just in case the people rise up here. You see how they do it in Egypt? I'm trying to think where else we need them... hmmm... I'll get back to you...
I'm not fully convinced the Opposition will wait until March 22nd. There's a good strategic argument to be made for trying to pull the plug earlier, like on March 21st, if they can wrangle a no confidence on that day. This takes some of the wind out of the sails of the Tories, who would, if the Opposition waits until March 22nd, have a budget to hold up and declare "See what Canadians would have had if the Opposition hadn't forced this unnecessary election on us!"It also gives them a chance at maximum impact over a likely censure of Bev Oda and over the crime plan estimates that the Government has been so unwilling to provide.A few weeks ago I didn't think an election was likely, now I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it.
BILLIONS???? how many are we buying??
Of course there are going to have to be maintenance fee's. You think you can buy 9 billion dollars worth of plains and not have to maintain them. Stop looking for every little thing to complain about and let the conservatives run this country. Especially when it comes to our men an women who protect us, give them the equipment to keep us safe. The only time the Liberals care about fiscal responsibility is when they are not trying to get money for one of their corporate friends.
The PBO hasn't guessed anything right yet, and I doubt he will start now. He said the deficit would be much higher than the government's forecast, and it turns out that the deficit is $5 billion LOWER than the government's forecast. He said the government's forecast for interest rates was too low, and the interest rate has stayed even LOWER than the government forecast. So it's no surprise that he is once again guessing way too high.
So let me get this straight, the Liberal clowns want to back out of another agreement they entered into many years ago. Let's remind the Canadian Public that they were the ones who spent over 500 million on the R&D of the F35. Purchase of this aircraft will mean numerous jobs for Canadians in Vancouver, Montreal and Winnipeg not to mention a lot of money for the Canadian Economy. The Liberals want to open the competition up so what.., we can buy a Eurofighter and get nothing back into the Cdn economy. Plus lets think back to the Comorant purchase that the Liberals paid hundreds of millions to scrub and then turned around and purchased the same helicopter at a cost of millions more per helicopter. The Liberals then ordered that DND not call it an EH101 so they could mislead the Canadian Public as to their massive screw up.For all you Liberal bleeding hearts who know nothing about National Defence, I suggest you either become a little more educated before voting or get off your couches and get down to your local recruiting centre and learn what your military is doing. Don't believe everything the Liberal minded Canadian Media brings to you.
Face it Conbots...the Harper Regime is lying to the public and misleading Parliament. The Regime has No Respect for Canadians or our Democracy. Time to take down the Harper Regime and replace it with democratic leadership that has the morals,ethics and values fair minded Canadians can look up to.
Over how many decades is this contract? 20 years minimum.... with an expanding economy? This is not a big deal people.
The Conservatives are morally and ethically bankrupt.Use your vote to kill this beast.
Lets see here, 9 billion plus 7 billion equal 30 billion. Must be some of that Liberal accounting techniques Canadians have been subjected to in the past. The loopy Left (also known as the Opposition) want Contracts to go out. Yep, on a plane that nobody out is currently developing. Again, Loopy Left thinking here. Lets face it, the hatred our Loopy Left have for the Military (they take money from there Lefty programs) would mean they want the CF-18Â’s to be replaced with rebuilt Cessnas. Remember the Liberal and what they did. We continue to risk lives flying those Maintenance hanger lurking helicopters (Sea Kings)
So again, regardless of all other things, because in Canada we don't operate on an ends justifying the means process, we have been lied to and mislead AGAIN by the Conservative party. They have already driven the final spike into the myth of Conservative honestly and accountability. They are now adding insult to injury, and blatantly lying to and withholding information from parliament, simply so they can buy a plane so we can be a defacto army unit for the next American excursion. Not saying we don't need jets, but countries are moving away from this jet because of it's limitations and expected cost overruns. Keep in mind people, this jet is still on paper, and has not even been produced yet.
On the other hand Marc, they're nearly impossible to find or shoot down and we could have several thousand for the price of a jet or two. Yes, this is a viable alternative and will continue to be the way of the future. By the way, the F-35 is slower than the F-18 and a sniper can change history. Oddly, yesterday the Israeli's purposed delaying their purchase of just 20 F-35s for several years to wait for the technology to catch up with the unfounded Conservative promise.
How can Canada commit to the F-35 price tag, when in reality, we don't know what that price tag is!....Why does Canada not lease these aircraft, like when we consumer's purchase a car?,...What if the F-35 turn's out to be a lemon & or is found to have defect's that makes the fleet grounded,....Let Lockheed Martin pick up the tab & suck up all the cost over-run that may incur ....excuse me!...will incur!...Attached to that,..."This was unforeseen"! If the fleet should get grounded,..how is Canada going to defend it's airspace?.....Let's see how many Polititian's are going to be one the board of directors ,as "consoltants"..who will make $3,000,000.00 to show up at one of the Aircraft part supplier's main office to sign in and read a newspaper and leave after half hour!
I see the cons are out in full force today. Anyways, it's ok for you all to bash the Liberals when they were in power for whatever mistakes they made. But its not ok to call out "Harper's Government" for theirs? Blind Partisanship at its finest. Last time I checked, it was the "government of Canada." Harper and bulldog Baird does not represent me. Enough is Enough. Bring on an election. I will be more than happy to vote this corrupt government out of office. They were voted in to bring about accountability. But when the opposition parties try to hold them to account, it's deny, deny, deny.
I have no idea how the CON sheeple can condone this purchase, the price is almost twice what Herr Harper and his goose steppers have been stating. Thanks to Kevin Paige for being the voice of reason, and the Liberals and Ignatieff for not letting this issue go away. Time to get those thieving CONS and the Harper government out of power. I shudder to think what could happen if Herr Harper ever had a majority.
Let their heads swing. We do not need a fanatical regime in power that thinks it is above reproach or public reproval. Play by the book or get out and obviously they do not play by the book. Billions of hidden costs in a U.S. Military purchase that was fudged in with little or no competition allowed from Canadian Manufacturers? Falsified and altered documents, pre-signed by unknowing officials who believed they were agreeing to the funding named in the document. Ministers publicly denying then admitting guilt in the altered document scandal. Using government letter headed stationary to solicit votes. Using same old negative adverts to vilify the opposition leader, very distasteful and highly unimaginative. Not giving house member full details asked for in numerous occasions including reports on alleged torture and fiscal spending by the current government.
Does any one else smell a classic Harper prorogue coming againÂ…??
This so-called budget watchdog seems to pick numbers out of the air, so I would like to know what facts he bases his predictions on
@ Jet Jockey, Well said! I wish a few more of our brave men and women fighter pilots would post their feels on this site. You people are the ones putting your lives on the line each time you strap yourself into the CF18 so let the people of Canada know what you as fighter pilots would do if you could make the dession on the purchase of new fighter aircraft.
No fly zone with stealth sounds good to me!
There are issues with the Conservative gov't ,however they pale in comparison to what the Liberals did while they were in power ! It seems there is not one gov't who will govern honestly and without issues arising. Our MPs are only human and mistakes will be made. Having said this, I will still vote for Harper and the Conservatives based on their work of getting Canada through the recession which I believe we are not out of. Financially things may get worse given the world situation and oil prices. Sir Ignatieff has no plan for Canadians. He has said nothing worthy of our vote other than he will raise taxes, cancel the jets thus costing Canadians another pile of money which the Liberals did years ago by cancelling the helicopters. This nitpicking and digging for dirt is sickening because we all know the Liberals have been guilty of the same things they are accusing the Conservatives off. They are not without their own scandals and will never be. My goodness, they don't even have an elected Leader just a self appointed one. It is obvious that Ignatieff hates Harper and wants to be PM in the worset way and will do anything even underhandedly to achieve it. He didn't even meet with Harper to give input into the budget and has already said he and the Liberals will vote against the budget. Is this the kind of person we want for Canada who will not work with the gov't, will not contribute input to the budget, who constantly flip flops on everything, screws up his face pointing his finger at the Conservatives and has been absent many more days than Mr Harper our PM ? This is not who I want to lead Canada. (X) Conservatives
Our men and women need the very best, I have no trouble supporting this.
At least Harper gets "kudos" for trying to beef up the military so that we are no longer the laughingstock of the world,at one time kiddies,this country could fight with the best of them (D-DAY) comes to mind.We then no longer need to send in our 3 box kites and a paper bag!!!!
I shudder to think that iggy might just might become prime minister of this country .there are a lot of folks bashing harper but the libs will lie to your face and then spend thousands to try to back it up
It doesn't matter how much military aircraft or vehicles or equipment costs. This world's falling apart rapidly and we need to find a way to protect ourselves or someone with a bigger plane or bigger guns or even a "bigger agenda" is going to one day come rolling in and we'll have nothing to defend ourselves against. Canada's military is a joke, and it's time we modernize.
The Canadian government and all of Canada needs these new jets to stay modern and up to date with the rest of the world if there is any chance of keeping the security of Canada ours. Almost every nation in the world is flying the best to buy from Russia and China. Why is Canada and the opposition parties always using things like this to turn this once great nation into a backwards lacking technology and leading edge country. Does anyone remember what the liberals did with the much needed helicopter deal. Which cost the lives of some our pilots, as well the cost to tax payers for cancelling the deal then turn around and buy the striped done model. Liberals are waste of time to this country and hunger nothing more then to line their own pockets.
Of course, the Liberals would rather have our Air Force order a gross of ping pong paddles from ACME, and have pilots run off the edge of a cliff, flapping the paddles like Wile E Coyote chasing the Road Runner.
What is going on with this "Harper Government"? At least with the Liberals it was only a few Quebec members who stole from us. This Harper Government is systematically keeping the truth from us, is more secretive than any government in our history, spends our money like it was their own, discredits our institutions, blames the civil service for their incompetence, fires anyone who points out their failings, says one thing while they are obviously doing another, and worst of all is spending us into such a huge whole our grandchildren will be paying for it. And the worst thing is this is all calculated and planned from the top.
The Government of Harper as lost the confidence of the majority of Canadians. It is time to bring a Liberal majority back so we can again get back to the Government of Canada. I like most Canadians am sick of the dishonesty and cover ups of this Harper Government. They lie, they cheat and they continue to put Canada into more debt. I will never vote for them again, they are fiscally irresponsible with big spending, corporate tax cuts to large corporations who don't really need it and who will pay more taxes in the end to pay for these programs, we the average persons and especially the poorer middle class.
If an election is forced the Liberals will make many promises....In my 65 plus years I have heard many Liberal promises and the only one that comes to mind that they kept was to raise taxes. Promises are cheap to make but to fullfilloften means much higher taxes to you and I............. The Conservatives have built up (funded) our Military which is considered to be the best....I want to keep our military well funded....you think the Liberals will ? I trust the Conservatives to continue the great job they have done on the economy....that is what matters to Canadians..our economy !
The Conservative government brought us through the roughest financial crisis that has happened globally in my life time, and I thank them. They did a great job and I would put my trust in them again if another election was called.The Liberal party who sent our men and women over to Afghanistan to put their lives on the line, sent them there with old tired equipment, due to Liberal cut backs in the military. It was the Conservatives who recognized this and have tried to keep our soldiers safe by updating their necessary tools.Now the Liberal party would send our pilots into the air with obsolete aircraft.Oh, the Conservative party makes stupid mistakes just like any other party, but the good they do out surpasses anything the Liberals have ever done.I was a Liberal voter because of Paul Martin. Once the Conservatives took power, I realized that I had more money in my pocket and I wasn't afraid of what might lay a head for Canada.Mr. Iggnatia ? has got to be the worst party leader to ever to head a party in Canada. He is not sincere in addressing Canadians and he does not have a political course for Canada.If Iggy ever became Prime Minister of our Country, taxes would surely rise and those of us on fixed incomes (seniors) would loose our independence.It would be good to see the NDP in opposition, at least they have some good ideas. Their only problem is that they don't know how to implement them so that they benefit all Canadians. And that statement is backed up by Bob Raye's failed leadership in Ontario.
If harper was smart he would pull the plug and go to the polls. The opposition is going to do it anyway. so why not beat em to the punch. He did it before so why not now? ha
@Eric Dempster....you actually want to build a fleet of drone planes?!?! What kind of hillbilly argument is that? "Let's buy 25 drones for the price of one F-35", that is laughable. Not a single drone plane can even break the sound barrier. A private aircraft can run circles around them. This is your suggestion for the future of Canada's Defence???
@Scotty I know how our parliamentary system works and I also know blind hate and partisanship then you do when I say coalition commies and separatists I am calling a spade a spade. Or do deny the fact that the bloc is separatists and their goal is to break up Canada??? As for the NDP yes I do call them commies because a lot of what they say are the same things that stallen said. And finally the liberal coalition commies and separatists have not made any attempt to work with the elected government in any way shape or forum and constantly threatening an election. And they will do anything to get into power. @Scotty. I know how our parliamentary system works or should work. You however donÂ’t understand politics
Our men need the best of the best of equipment. Canada has billions to waste on tin pot dictators and rich countries like China. It's about time we got some good planes for a change, regardless of the cost.
ok, so if the contract to purchase the F-35's is cancelled it will cost billions in fees, making our taxes once again go up in some way with nothing to show for it.and good call on the Liberals screwing our country over, its what they do. they turned Canada into a refugee camp, destroyed our military and just give away all our natural resources.I think its time to make jobs for all the people complaining about there being no work, and get rid of all non Canadian owned businesses so that we can make our country prosperous... having a strong dollar does nothing when the price of everything is insanely high...
Being a conservative, and fair, I admit the government messed up. But, I am sick and tired of the antics of the coalition children in parliament.If they are so fed up with the government as theysay, then why dont they vote for non-confidence and let the people decide. I suspect they are playing politics again because they have absolutely no policies to offer Canadians
Do ether the Liberals or NDP know of a replacement plane? NO! Because if they do then they should come forward and tell all Canadians. But remember the plane must be a 5 generations plane, why because all the partners need to be able to give the same amount of support to each other and all other countries are buying a 5 generation aircraft , NOT ONE THAT IS THE SAME AS WE ARE FLYING NOW! It is time for Iggy & smilin Jack to put up or shut up!
>>>James Vancouveer said The Harper government wants to give billions to the Americans to builds war planes that are inadequate for Canadian air space. >>>Greetings James from 22 Wing, North Bay, the home of Canada's air defence. How do you know the F-35 is inadequate? Are you a fighter pilot? Sorry kid but flight sims don't count!
Elias Nasrallah - While your post on the whole is quite correct, I have to take exception to one part of it. While he may be a member of the Liberal Party, everything I have seen from the Speaker of the House has shown that he is a fair, objective, and non-partisan man while doing his duties as Speaker.
These processes are purely political. The decisions of the committee looking into the Oda case and the cost of legislation are a foregone conclusion. The majority of committee members are opposition MPs, so they will issue a report that finds the government in contempt of parliament and calls for the most extreme measures possible. There will be no real deliberation or objective analysis of evidence. The report is already being written by the opposition in a backroom. Similarly, the only reason Liberal Defence Minister Art Eggleton avoided being found in contempt of parliament in 2002 (when he misled parliament about whether or not Canadian special forces were in Afghanistan) is that the Liberals had a majority of members on the committee that reported on the matter. Allowing MPs to pass judgement on other MPs will never result in anything but partisan outcomes. This is what makes parliament dysfunctional.
OK, let me see if I have this right. It's OK for Conservatives to bash Liberals while they're in power, but not the other way around. It's perfectly natural to skewer the Liberals for the mistakes they made while they were in power, but we must cut the Conservatives some slack. When we do insist on holding the Conservatives accountable, all they can say is "But what about the Liberals?" Don't answer for your mistakes, just deflect. Never mind the Liberals, we are talking about the current Conservative government. The party that promised things would be different. Things are different alright. They're worse. FAIL!
Dear Scotty; i have no problem with a coalition but what i say they must do is they must tell all Canadians first that the 3 parties are joining together to run as ONE! So as far as i am concerned if they run as 3 separate parties then they have to accept the fact that when the election is done if they do not have to votes to beat the Conservatives then they can not change there mind now to add there totals together and say oh yea we did win!
All this was to be expected. The desperate power hungry opposition is making its move hoping these minor infractions will tip the scale for them. Just like the last election where Harper gaffed over support of Quebec arts, these gaffs will make a dent but for the most part most Canadians are not paying attention yet. When they are brought up during the election campaign the Conservatives will have a long list of Liberal blunders to counter with and will undoubtedly bring the conversation back to the many Conservative successes specifically the economy. Harper is doing a good job, the economy is strong and Canada stands proud. Only the overly zealous religious liberals who love to hate anybody not in their religion are offended. See you at the voting booth. [X] Harper
We can no longer believe any reports from the Harper government, when it is now clear that the government is hiding and distorting information from parliament and the public? Canada has never had a government with so many scandals as with this Harper government. We need an election soon, voters will turn out in masses to vote this corrupt government out of office. We already pay an extra 16 million per day in interest because of this governments poor management.
I am a Conservative and disappointed that the PM et all are not handling things the way we expect them to nor should they be - and these days you are making it difficult to support you (not that i would go to the other parties) .... HOWEVER for any Liberal to stand up and cry fowl-cry damages to the fundamental principals of Parliament... two wrongs dont make a right - but lets put some things in perspective 1) Conservatives - clean up your act ! Stop being paranoid ! 2) Liberals: hmmm memory refresher Gomery Sponsorship scandal - Millions of $s still missing nor Ministers held accountable1993 Cancelling the helicopter programme cost $1 billion for pure vindictiveness - costing taxpayers money and jobsAs for the detainees - who was in Government when this first started - the Liberalswho brought us into Afghanistan - the LiberalsShawinigate - Chretien signs off on the back of a napkin for motel that burns downOtto Lang flies nanny back to Scotland on Cdn Forces planeDavid Dingwall - implicated in illegal lobbying - investigation shut down by Liberal GovtDavid Dingwall's severance package fiasco - and questionable expense claimsPrivate Foundations Scandal - 9$Billion - Liberals shut investigation downAlan Rock - Gun Registry fiascoPaul Martin - & CSL shipping lines & $162 million... investigation shut down by liberalsPierre Pettigrew - HRDC Trainings School . funding improprieties - investigation shut downPetro Canada - AG prevented by Liberals from investigating improprietiesMinister Fox forging documents re an illegal abortionAlfonso Gagiliano - Sonsorship and other shady issuesTrudeau - liead about wage and price controlTrudeau - 1996 - responsible for uncontrollable debt spiraletc etc ' !!!!! And lets make sure the media plays fair .........
Canadian politics seem to crave uniformity.Our history shows governments that perform with the slightest hint of competence live long. Unlike other democracies we seem to stay with what we know until the stench gets so bad there is no other option other than to toss the bums out.Is Harperville got there yet?Hard to say but in a nation where the tendency is toward left of center the radical right ideology is teetering and may well plummet off the cliff.Kim Campbell can attest to how quick the Canadian public can decide to return home.
I agree with Sam. It's not a bad thing to be loyal to a political party or ideology but without a moral compass, our democracy won't function. If the government really believes in more $ for prisons and no $ for KAIROS (which I don't have a problem with), be honest and transparent about your position rather than try to hide everything that might be controversial. Voters...and our kids...deserve an open society where people can discuss issues respectfully and collectively decide what's best for our country.
Given the split in the centre-left voting population it is no wonder the conservatives have wormed their way up the middle. If forming a coalition is the only way to wrest control of the government from Steven Harper's hands then the liberals and NDP should follow that course. I shudder to think what they will find when they have full access to this governments documents. It is clear that a massive house-cleaning is in order with full disemination of what this government has been hiding. While I can't speak for others, this Canadian wants to know what my government has been doing behinds closed doors. A minority conservative government under Steven Harper will only result in the same dysfunctional government we have been subjected to over the last 5 years. We may not have a political leader presently in this country that can immediately heal the growing divisions we face but for certain we do not need a person such as Harper who revels in those divisions and exploits them for his own strategic purposes. While I might at times agree with some conservative ideas I cannot support any party that has Steven Harper as its leader or his motley crew that surrounds him such as Baird and Flaherty amongst others. I really believe that Harper is an anathema to this country, not because he is supposedly conservative, but rather because he thrives on creating divisiveness when a better person would work to find solutions that brings Canadians together.
I, and I believe most Canadians main concern is that Mr. Harper and his Conservatives have brought us through rough economic times, the economy is recovering.....the rest is all dirt and dirt is cheap !
Canadians may not want an election, but the media sure does! They think they get all tingly at the thought of the millions of dollars that will be spent on advertising during a federal campaign and you can tell by the " he said, she said" reporting what their motives are. Most of the opposition's accusations about this government have been petty and sometimes even fabricated, but that doesn't stop news media from giving it credence. I believe that some lines were crossed here and that the government should be held accountable, but to bring down such an effective government because of the failings of a few, would be a travesty!
Discipline has to come from the top and we are yet to see from this government. Every time there is a wrong doing, the top of the government takes the side of the wrong doer. I am surprised to see some people line up with the wrong doers just because they support conservatives. Lets promote honesty from top down and forget about our petty interest if we are really honest.
Good: Now we can have an election and Iggy can come clean how much all his promises are going to cost and where he is going to get the money since he says he dosn't want to raise taxes. He will cancel the fighter contract and open it up to bids, what if this is the best bid what then years wasted and penalities paid. How much is his daycare program going to cost, keep in mind what Quebec first said the cost would be and what it is today and why not everyone has it. Those are only a couple of examples, I hope in a campaign they are asked to provide the costs over and over, then we will see how forthright they are.PS By the way I'm still waitng to see the original document the 3 stooges signed when they wanted to form a coalition, oops I forgot the Canadian people don't have to see it just trust them.
Once again the LIberals are out in full force on this site. Let us remind people what the Liberals did. They complain about attack adds? Remember the attack adds the Liberals did in 06? Harper was to have armed troops on the streets of cities across Canada. They also made up the "hidden agenda" crap that Canadians got sick of. Now you Liberals speak of trust? Where is the $44 million you stole from us? You speak of hidden agenda? What about when you dipped into unemployment funds to "balance" budgets? How about when the Liberals, since Trudeau, reduced the funding for our military? You say that Canada is traditionally a peace keeping nation. Well, why did the Liberals not fund the military properly so the Canadian troops could do their peace keeping missions? What about cancelling the helicopters? The Liberals made the tax payers pay the cancellation fee. Also, what about Mr. Ignatieff? He has no plan for Canada. We still have not heard of the Liberals idea's for our nation. They are busy making up lies and nitpicking at everything the Conservatives do. Let us not forget that the Liberals did not want to raise the age of consent from 14 years old to 16. They fought that tooth and nail. What about tough on crime bills? The Liberals have fought that also. Folks, let us not forget Mr. Speaker himself. He is a member of the Liberal party of Canada. That is why he ruled against the Conservatives. So I do believe that it is time for an election. The people of Canad are tired of what the Liberals are NOT doing!
The opposition parties have complained that the contract wasn't opened up to a bidding process, and Canadian companies were therefore excluded. I think Iggy has forgotten he is on the North side of the border. And itÂ’s obvious the nutty professor dose not understand the process of tendering a contract.1st This was an issue in the U.S. 2nd Lockheed Martin was the only capable company that put in a bid to build the F-35 so yes they won the contract. lastly it will only 9 billion to buy the 65 air craft. As for the 7 billion to maintain them over 35 years. It is the same cost to maintain the 30 year old CF-18s or any other air craft. The F-35 is top of the line and the ONLY 5th generation fighter available for Canada to buy. the euro fighter and others are only 4th generation.
This election will boil down to whether we want to be sheep under a Harper government or citizens under a Canadian government.I want to go back to living in Canada not Harpervania so I know what my vote will be.
By purchasing manned aircraft we are making a terrible strategic, as well as wasteful financially, error. The future of aerial warfare lies with dronevaircraft.
The US already is training more drone pilots than manned aircraft pilots. You can build and fly and maintain over 25 drone fighter planes for the cost of each F 35. As well the drones would have a much smaller radar image, longer range, higher maneuverability than the F 35. They could be launched from any ships or any clear ground and landed by parachute if necessary.
They can be equipped with air to air and air to ground missiles priding our troops with overwhelming protection and tactical advantage.
In essence, the Conservatives who tout their support for our troops and their fiscal probity are doing neither.
This governments contempt for our institutions and the Canadian people is absolutely appalling. There is no reason or excuse for their actions. As a country we don't seem to want an election, but neither can we afford to be played forfools.
The Letterhead Police, otherwise known as the Liberal Party, have no platform and no leadership and thus that is why they have turned to nitpicking every little thing that the government does. Only people without a shred of common sense would vote for the Liberals in the state they are currently in.
Peter in mb, you obviously have no clue how our parliamentary system works. It's not about some "coalition" full of what you call "commies and separatists" it's about a majority of DULY ELECTED members of parliament. You may not like the politics of these folks but they were elected and have a right to be there. The party system has obsured this basic fact, but it's all about a majority of members. The Conversative party may have won more seats last election than any other single party but they do not represent a majority of Canadians and never have. If the other MPs combine forces (as the Conversatives themselves have tried to do with both of what you call "commies and separatists") then they are simply reflecting the wishes of their constituents. That's democracy.
The Harper government wants to give billions to the Americans to builds war planes that are inadequate for Canadian air space. Ignatieff wants to give Canadians a chance to bid on plane more suitable to Canadian airspace. Harper wants to raise our income tax & give tax breaks to big American corporations. Ignatieff wants to give Canadians lower income tax & raise corporate taxes on big American business. Interesting, looks like Harper is working for the Americans & Ignatieff is working for Canadians.
I'm alarmed at the ever-growing list of 'disclosures' about the way this government conducts its business. For democracy to truly work, it needs dialogue and transparency, not unilateralism and secrecy.I'm a social and fiscal conservative, and yet I'm finding it harder every day to support a government that looks more and more like the financial puppets who front the runnning of the show in Washington.Mr Harper, if you want a real majority government, deal with the issues aftecting Canadians honestly and openly. Why has our policy on interceptors always been to have dual-engined fighters, to minimize risk over the expanses of our northland? But now in a closed-bid, a single engined US design is chosen and you expect us NOT to ask why and how? Robert Gates knows more about this than Canadians, and likely had far more influence!
All these monkeys (iggy, and his coalition) need to understand that Canadian don't want an election. But guess what's going to happen... We will have an election because the chief of the monkey wants to spend 500 million of our taxes on an election. He doesn't even have a platform. Oh!! wait! his platform is to bash on the current gov, that's it. That's all he does and the other monkeys (Layton and Bloc) well they just follow along because that what monkeys do.Holy crap we don't need an election, but this time if we have one, we need to have a majority Conservative, and continue to work on the economy, because they have been doing a great job at it.
We don't need high tech junk that will be obsolete in a decade. I'm not adverse to military spending however I am adverse to spending outrageously on useless frills. We lack the basic capability of ground defense of our sovereign territory. The US, Russia and EU are ready to carve up our arctic and split the oil and gas resources that we can't even defend. A handful of these aircraft will be obliterated in hours leaving us broke and defenseless. Scrap the planes and invest in missiles, ships and armour. But mostly missiles.
Canada elected the CPC party to govern and before you Harper haters jump all over me I will admit right up front that members of his government have made gaffs. Now, having said that can anyone tell me what Canada government in the history of Canada that has NOT had members make gaffs. The problem I am having in voting for either the NDP or Liberals is the childish ways they are acting in the house. They spend more time acting the members instead of acting the bills the Cons are trying to put forward. This fighter aircraft is an example, if the Liberals don't like it fine, then make resonable recommendations on a replacement plane for the old F18 that will do the job the military needs it to do. Have they done that, NO, they just complain it cost to much and the PM is hiding the full cost. To my mind the Libers and NDP are doing everything they can to hold the government back then complaining that the Harper government is doing nothing.
Harper is a big meanie! Nobody likes him. He has to go! When Mr Ignatieff get elected and takes his rightful place as natural leader then everything will be okay. I predict a Liberal Party landslide victory because Canada is at the bottom of everything because of Harper. Mr. Ignatieff will immediately create jobs and and grow Canada's economy and everything will be great because Mr Ignatieff is very smart with lots of education and he is highly respected by all the other world leaders like Obama who also thinks Mr Ignatieff is great. What a great day it will be! Rejoice!
Once again the usually left wing biased media working in concert with the left wing liberals to do a full court press to try and force an election Canadians do not want or need. While the government is not lily perfect on some of these issues they are doing a good job and it bothers me to always see the opposition never doing their job and just looking for political bones to chew on. Shame on them all.
Secrecy and Non-Accountability, that's not what the Conservatives ran the last election on but it will be what they have to explain in the next election.
Iggy thinks we need to cancel this contract, at what ever the cost is, then buy the cheapest junk on the market. I don't think that fighter jets can be treated on the same level as Iggy's toilet paper shopping at the supermarket.
Re; Bev Oda "she claimed she did not know who altered an official document ... later admitted she had authorized a staff member "
This could merely be a case of symantics. I am a parent. More than once I have left instructions for my children to do something. If I were asked who actually completed the task I would claim I didn't know. Now if someone asked me who authorized this task, I would say I did.
To give Oda the benefit of the doubt, perhaps this was her 'confusion' - she left instructions but did not know the name of the person who actually inserted . Is this really worth wasting air and print time on? Do we not have more pressing issues?
@Jason from Lindsay: How can it be that all of a sudden you want compromises in the budget, yet two weeks ago Herr Harper told all of Canada there would be "NO HORSE TRADING". So either Harper will go against his ideals to hold on to power at all costs or his internal polling shows he better make some deals and fast. It's funny how Con supporters two weeks ago were telling all of us for their leader to not make any deals and now you want them. Things slipping away maybe???? Worried maybe????? Maybe it's the first time Harper has told the truth in a long time when HE NOW SAY"S he dosen't want an election and if I was him, I wouldn't want one either. Con supporters have to realize that if we go to the polls and Harper dosen't get a MAJORITY, he will be gone as well. 3 elections and no majority and he's out of here.
All you Conservative backers who time and time again bring up ADSCAM, well guess what. At least the liberals were "NEVER" found in contempt of parliment, not once. Not like the holier than holy Conservatives. The liberals paid the price for ADSCAM and look what we got in their place. Bye Bye Harper.
I sometimes wonder if mister harpers intentions are to turn each Province into a State. He has Americanized Canada with his attack ads. He is Mr Obama's little puppet. He is willing to spend billions of Canadians dolloars on AMERICAN PLANES. He intends to build GIANT JAILS just like the americans. In stead of having a Canadian election let's save ourself some time and just vote on becoming AMERICANS
Well,well,well. Our illustrious PM has had his hands slapped by the speaker (whom is a Liberal but he is totally impartial, plus the fact he was elected speaker UNANIMOUSLY even by Cons MPs) What will all this mean. Maybe nothing, but then again it means alot as far as our PM running amock with our democracy. I tend to believe the reason they won't release budetary documents is quite simple. They have lied to us about the costs of F-35s, tough on crime legislation and just about anything else you can think of. What really scares me is not what we do know about as far as our finances, it's WHAT we don't know. Remeber when Flats was finance minister in Ontario and AFTER he left they found a 5 billion dollar deficit and now he has his hands on the big purse strings. This could get ugly folks even for Con supporters because it's your debt as well as mine.
The opposition has been telling us for weeks that the Harper Gov't is corrupt. This is their chance to bring down the "corrupt" gov't but will they have the guts to do it or are they just a bunch of foul mouthed cowards.
Canada dose not want an election but Canada needs one. Parliament is not working, every time a conservative picks their nose or uses the wrong pen the liberal led coalition crys wolf. Enough is enough already!!! Will it be a conservative majority or a coalition with the commies and separatist? The voters will decide.
If you watch PBS: Battle of the X Planes, you will see that Canada and several other nations held a competition between Boeing and Lockhead Martin to provide an aircraft to compliment the F-22 Raptor. Due to the extremly high development costs, only one supplier was chosen.We could ask China and Russia, maybe Japan to supply our next 5th generation fighters. They are the only ones with development far enough along to bid competively.We spent 2 billion dollars on the G20 last year for one week of political PR. 16 billion dollars with all of the jobs, economic benefits and a first rate fighter for the next 30 years is a great deal.We're sitting on some of the best natural resources on the planet, at some point in the near future we ARE going to have to show that we are able and willing to defend ourselves. IED's can't win wars!Remember Liberals the EH-101 and Sea King. We would have had them replaced 15 years ago for a fraction of the price we're going to pay for the new Cyclones and cancelation fees for the EH-101. I'd wish that the politicians would all grow up and follow the Danish method of arms procurement. Stop playing football with our future!
and in a related report: " The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives released the report today, which says defence spending is expected to hit at least $22.3 billion in the current budget year." while also ranting about the "traditional peacekeeping role" which is a myth. What this left leaning think tank doesn't tell you is that they report only the dollar amount$ without putting it into context. It's mere $$$ but not relative per capita or in terms of buying power. In other words, no comparison to a baseline to make it real ---- for example: $10 today doesn't buy what $10 did in 1945. Context is everything, and these guys don't have any.
Micheal Ignatieff once again shows he's working for the Canadian people. We can expect Kevin Page's report to expose more lies from this corrupt government. The 140 million spent on those big lottery style cheques & action plan signs was also given to an American company. Harper loves giving our hard earned tax dollars to American companies. It's almost like Harper is an American with his American style attack ads & tax cuts to big American business.
Since the opposition doesn't want to fight an election on substantive reasons (the budget), why accomodate their attempts to hijack our parliamentary system with irrelevancies? The budget has already been decided on, put it before the house earlier than March 22nd. Let the people see it sooner, so that an election has to be decided on facts rather than the fear mongering of Ignaetieff and Layton.
Bring the election, if you have the guts Iggy. Canadians elected a government to govern and your games are interfering in their duty to do so. Let's have that election and let Canadians speak loud and clear, and let it be a majority, because we want our government to govern not have to deal with constant threats from wannabe's. We will now turn to forum over to the usual rants from the anti-harper lobby................
I think Oda needs to go -i t's that simple. On the issue of the fighter jets, I'm happy that this government has actually taken military spending seriously and has worked to improve the equipment used by our armed forces; the war that the Liberals got us into (Afghanistan) made that spending necessary.Harper needs to include some of the NDPs ideas in the budget. I'd like to see the GST on home heating costs removed. If the Tories can deliver a budget which attempts to compromise with the opposition, and then if the opposition rejects said budget, you'll see a Harper majority by the end of May.
We get involved in foreign countries affairs where there is corruption, etc. - which we should stay out of and mind our own business.We should worry more about getting our own affairs in order as it appears we have some major problems of our own to attend.
Source:
No comments:
Post a Comment